Is a "nominee agreement" the best way ?

Smoke

copied this from a comment of a FB group Writer has lived in Bali for a long long time She has fought tooth and nail for her house, and been ( and still is) having an ordel It's not OK to use ANYONE as a nominee. A nominee would have NO rights of ownership over the land . . . and as a consequence, neither will you. The correct way to "own" your home in Bali is to have the current owner (or nominee) put in a Permohonan Penurunan Hak from Hak Milik to Hak Pakai at the Land Office (BPN), then you buy the Hak Pakai, which is as good an ownership, and it's the only way (other than a lease), for you to have your land in Lembongan. Alternatively, and perhaps better still, the current owner (or nominee) sells you the land and when the sale documents are submitted to the Land Office (BPN), they include a Permohonan (from you), for Hak Pakai. The result is the same: You will have a deed for the land with a different color paper used for the cover than Hak Milik deeds have, and just as powerful in terms of your rights over the land. Special requirements are placed on foreign owners via Hak Pakai, however. You will need to show that you are resident in Indonesia (permit to stay), that your presence is beneficial to the nation in some way (your investment in the land is theoretically the proof of that), and that the property is a residence, not an office, shop, factory, showroom, auto repair garage, etc. You will also need to pay a fee based on a small percentage of the assessed tax value of the land (in addition to the 10% tax on the transaction). Your Hak Pakai deed will need to be renewed or extended after 30 years, when you will again need to pay the fee and prove your qualification to hold such a deed, as before. In the mean time, if you sell the land (to an Indonesian citizen), they will get a full HAK MILIK deed when the documentation of the transaction is processed at the Land Office. This means that the fact that a property is held under Hak Pakai does not reduce the resale value of the property. If you were to sell it to another foreign citizen, they would receive a Hak Pakai deed (like the one you had), but in their own name, and they would have to fulfil the same requirements that you did at the time of purchase. It's not that complicated, really. But please be fully aware, that a Hak Milik deed with a nominee's name on it is not valid. It can be challenged (or discovered as a fraud) at any time, and then the nominee's name is stricken from the deed, the property reverts to the State (The Republic of Indonesia), and you have no right to attempt to reclaim any monies paid by you to effect control (purchase) of the land. Furthermore, the nominee and the notary are liable to face criminal charges under several different sections of the Criminal Code of Indonesia, and may spend years in jail. Whoever has been advising you on this transaction (property agent, notary, lawyer) is either a total fraud, or a total idiot. Return to Square One and begin again. Thoughts and comments Please

spicyayam

Thought I would jump in before Rangi does

Smoke

[quote="spicyayam, post: 101843"]Thought I would jump in before Rangi does

[/QUOTE] Spicyayam now Rangi will find another picture for his comment ? besides the foto comment which I do agree with ,but with your better halfs profession any other comment on this "only legal" way of doing it ?

Smoke

spicyayam wrote Another thing I don't understand is that many people spend small fortunes buying/leasing property, but they balk at paying some legal fees to make sure everything is above board. Then trying to fix the problem(s) down the track costs way more.

penny wise and pound foolish .

spicyayam

Another thing is that notaries have all of these agreements already made up from previous clients or they get them from other notaries. For them it is less work just to reuse one of the agreements. As you can imagine no two situations are ever the same, so it is risky not getting them checked thoroughly.

spicyayam

I will ask her later. Problem is she is always busy now! From listening to the stories so far of the problems people have, I think the biggest is that people think they are protected with the various agreements they have, but they don't actually understand them. They presume since they were made by a notary, everything is/will be fine. As I have said before the notary works for both buyer/seller, owner/leasee, nominee/owner etc. It is easy for the local to get something put into the agreement that the foreigner might not understand fully and it is only later do they realize the problem. Another thing I don't understand is that many people spend small fortunes buying/leasing property, but they balk at paying some legal fees to make sure everything is above board. Then trying to fix the problem(s) down the track costs way more.

Normy

Yes this does happen. Last July just prior to signing a contract involving the person who bought the remaining 2 years of a rental agreement, I found although dates, values, were correct the notary had used the details of myself (ok) and a previous person involved in the contract. The new buyer was not shown anywhere, although we were all (including her agent) sitting in front of the notary. We had to sit on our bums until relevant pages retyped (no computers). Another day in paradise.

Smoke

correct [MENTION=1532]Markit[/MENTION] I figured my description would summize that

Markit

Smoke wrotecopied this from a comment of a FB group Writer has lived in Bali for a long long time She has fought tooth and nail for her house, and been ( and still is) having an ordel It's not OK to use ANYONE as a nominee. A nominee would have NO rights of ownership over the land . . . and as a consequence, neither will you. The correct way to "own" your home in Bali is to have the current owner (or nominee) put in a Permohonan Penurunan Hak from Hak Milik to Hak Pakai at the Land Office (BPN), then you buy the Hak Pakai, which is as good an ownership, and it's the only way (other than a lease), for you to have your land in Lembongan. Alternatively, and perhaps better still, the current owner (or nominee) sells you the land and when the sale documents are submitted to the Land Office (BPN), they include a Permohonan (from you), for Hak Pakai. The result is the same: You will have a deed for the land with a different color paper used for the cover than Hak Milik deeds have, and just as powerful in terms of your rights over the land. Special requirements are placed on foreign owners via Hak Pakai, however. You will need to show that you are resident in Indonesia (permit to stay), that your presence is beneficial to the nation in some way (your investment in the land is theoretically the proof of that), and that the property is a residence, not an office, shop, factory, showroom, auto repair garage, etc. You will also need to pay a fee based on a small percentage of the assessed tax value of the land (in addition to the 10% tax on the transaction). Your Hak Pakai deed will need to be renewed or extended after 30 years, when you will again need to pay the fee and prove your qualification to hold such a deed, as before. In the mean time, if you sell the land (to an Indonesian citizen), they will get a full HAK MILIK deed when the documentation of the transaction is processed at the Land Office. This means that the fact that a property is held under Hak Pakai does not reduce the resale value of the property. If you were to sell it to another foreign citizen, they would receive a Hak Pakai deed (like the one you had), but in their own name, and they would have to fulfil the same requirements that you did at the time of purchase. It's not that complicated, really. But please be fully aware, that a Hak Milik deed with a nominee's name on it is not valid. It can be challenged (or discovered as a fraud) at any time, and then the nominee's name is stricken from the deed, the property reverts to the State (The Republic of Indonesia), and you have no right to attempt to reclaim any monies paid by you to effect control (purchase) of the land. Furthermore, the nominee and the notary are liable to face criminal charges under several different sections of the Criminal Code of Indonesia, and may spend years in jail. Whoever has been advising you on this transaction (property agent, notary, lawyer) is either a total fraud, or a total idiot. Return to Square One and begin again. Thoughts and comments Please

Smoke you should have also added that the quote comes from Suzi Johnson...

Braveheart_shaped_box

Yes quite easy to spot the DAB's style of posting ... also recently posted comments on the 'Indonesian Language Proficiency' discussion clearly stating that expats who cannot speak, write and read Bahasa 'fluently' should be deported immediately. When it was pointed out that most of the NGO's including our mob, would be left without personnel virtually overnight ... the posts were rapidly removed.

davita

Smoke wrotecorrect [MENTION=1532]Markit[/MENTION] I figured my description would [COLOR="#FF0000"]summize[/COLOR] that

'Summize' .....didn't understand what that meant so tried google and found it's a company that was recently bought by 'Twitter'. What that has to do with the 'nominee' argument escapes me. Braveheart...please advise this neophyte (not of a religious group) ....what is DAB?

Normy

@ 9. 'surmise' @ 10. 'Digital Audio Broadcasting'

davita

Normy wrote@ 9. 'surmise' @ 10. 'Digital Audio Broadcasting'

Thanks for the info Normy... so smoke was jazztalking...and DAB = the radio......got it..:cupcake:

Braveheart_shaped_box

davita wrote Braveheart...please advise this neophyte (not of a religious group) ....what is DAB?

Sorry Medspeak when adding notes to patient's history. DAB = Daft Auld Bat also OTT = Off Their Trolley DOA = Daft On Arrival SOD = Senile Or Deluded ... and my favourite DNR (RIP) = Do Not Resuscitate (Retro If Possible)

spicyayam

So my wife said the downsides to HP is that it ends with the death of the holder and cannot be passed to a heir and you basically have the government as being "owner" of your property, which has potential problems with corruption etc.

Markit

spicyayam wroteSo my wife said the downsides to HP is that it ends with the death of the holder and cannot be passed to a heir and you basically have the government as being "owner" of your property, which has potential problems with corruption etc.

I thought the possession of the property reverted to the owner or leasor (he who gave the lease and is the original Hak Milik certificate holder)?

spicyayam

Markit wroteI thought the possession of the property reverted to the owner or leasor (he who gave the lease and is the original Hak Milik certificate holder)?

I am not sure. I read out Smoke's first post to her and that is what she said.

Smoke

[MENTION=4813]spicyayam[/MENTION] can you ask wife about that and also why not next of kin and spouse on it ( like a daughter or son that are "bule" also

spicyayam

Sorry it is hard to get a straight answer! It seems like Hak Pakai is use more for government owned land, or for a business. I get the feeling she doesn't think it is a good idea for foreigners and suggests either Hak Sewa or loan agreement. She said to read this article: Hukum Properti - Pengetahuan Hukum Agraria dan Pertanahan di Indonesia

Markit

Ok read and tried to understand that Spicy but frankly I'm not all that great at comprehending legalize written in either of my mother-tongues so with the wonderful help of Googletranslate I have no fecking clue what this is actually trying to say. But thanks anyway...